Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Teme vezane uz aktivizam, djelovanje domaćih/stranih udruga, Pride, coming out, politiku i sve tome slično.
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Broken Down Angel
Postovi: 911
Pridružen/a: 24 pro 2006 11:28

Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Broken Down Angel » 07 kol 2010 18:03

Većina korisnika ovog foruma su pripadnici dvije tradicionalno diskriminirane skupine - sa spolnog / rodnog gledišta žene te s gledišta seksualne orijentacije - lezbijke ili biseksualke. U prvom pogledu ´neprijateljima´ su kroz povijest označavani muškarci, a u drugom heteroseksualna većina. Iako su žene bile diskriminirane i od drugih žena, iako smo kao osobe emocionalno & seksualno privučene istim spolom / rodom bili diskriminirani i od osoba istih sklonosti. Zaboravili smo u biti da nismo žrtve određene skupine ljudi, već društvenih normi ukorijenjenih duboko u kolektivnu svijest. Stoga su te skupine koje percipiramo jačima & otpornijima na društvenu nepravdu također njome pogođene. Na temi posvećenoj pravu muškarca na abortus roditeljskih prava & dužnosti, neki su iznijeli mišljenje kako heteroseksualni muškarci nikako nisu ugroženi orijentirajući se uglavnom na ženu - zauzimajući isključivo ginocentrični stav, na nesvjestan način činimo isto što i oni koji postavljajući potrebe & želje muškarca na prvo mjesto čine ženama. Iako nisam ni muškarac ni heteroseksualna osoba, pogađa me nepravda bez obzira na koju stranu bila usmjerena - bez obzira zatvaraju li oni oči na naše probleme ili mi na njihove. Problemi [heteroseksualnog] muškarca / dječaka u današnjem društvu:

-> Percepcija muškarca kao pripadnika jačeg spola, a žene kao slabijeg. - posljedice:
Nasilje nad ženama je često glasnije osuđivano, nego nasilje nad muškarcima.
Nasilje nad muškarcima često ne biva shvaćeno ozbiljno - čak se uzima kao predmet podsmijeha [Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them! controversy]. Posebice ako je provedeno od strane žene. Statistika iznesena na stranici UK Men and Father's Rights [istraživanje provedeno u Velikoj Britaniji od strane agencije za ispitivanje tržišta MORI] je zastrašujuća:
* One in five (18 percent) of men have been victims of domestic violence by a wife or female partner as opposed to 13 percent of women by a man.

* One in nine women admit to having used physical aggression against a husband or male partner (compared to one in ten men).

* 14 percent of men say that they have been slapped by a partner (compared to 9 percent of women).

* 11 percent of men have had a partner threaten to throw something heavy at them (compared to 8 percent of women).

* Only 4 percent of women explained that their behavior (either verbal or physical) was because of drink or drugs (compared to ten percent of men).

* Nearly half (47 percent) of women say that their behaviour (physical or verbal aggression or verbal reasoning) was because "it was the only way I could get through to him".

* Working class men (20 percent) are more likely to have been subjected to physical agression by a wife or female partner than upper or middle class men (15 percent).
Ista stranica se poziva i na druge izvore poput članka "Prevalence and stability of physical aggression between spouses: a longtitudinal analysis" by K. O'Leary, J. Barling, Arias, Ilena, A. Rosenbaum, J. Malone and A. Tyree - Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. 57(2):263-268, 1989.:
This report notes that 31% of men and 44% of women in a study reported that they aggressed against their partner in the year before marriage. Eighteen months after marriage, 27% of the men and 36% of the women reported being violent towards their partner.
Čin silovanja izvršen od strane muškarca nad ženom je teže sankcioniran u odnosu na isto djelo počinjeno od strane žene nad muškarcem - ako se uopće žrtva od srama usudi nazvati policiju - jer muškarci su viđeni kao agresori, a ne žene. Česta reakcija na takvu situaciju je opet podsmijeh ili nevjerica. Riječ je o marginaliziranom problemu koji svakako zahtijeva više pozornosti.
Researchers in England found that 3 percent of men said they were sexually assaulted after reaching age 16 and nearly half of the men reported they were forced into sex by women. The study, the largest study of nonconsensual sexual experience in men, surveyed 2,474 men in England, and is published in the current issue of The British Medical Journal. Many of the men never talked about being raped, the study found.
izvor: Rape Of Men Is Not Uncommon, Study Says

Kao zabrinjavajući podatak navodi se i broj silovanja izvršen od muškaraca nad drugim muškarcima koji se događaju u zatvorima - "In 2001, Human Rights Watch estimated that at least 140,000 inmates in the United States had been raped while incarcerated, and there is a significant variation in the rates of prison rape by race. Stop Prisoner Rape, Inc.[1] estimate that young men are five times more likely to be attacked; and that the prison rape victims are ten times more likely to contract a deadly disease." [Wikipedia] -> Problem je dokumentiran od strane iste organizacije pod nazivom No Escape: Male rape in US prisons gdje postaje poprilično personaliziranim pričama poput ove:
A Florida prisoner whom we will identify only as P.R. was beaten, suffered a serious eye injury, and assaulted by an inmate armed with a knife, all due to his refusal to submit to anal sex. After six months of repeated threats and attacks by other inmates, at the end of his emotional endurance, he tried to commit suicide by slashing his wrists with a razor. In a letter to Human Rights Watch, he chronicled his unsuccessful efforts to induce prison authorities to protect him from abuse. Summing up these experiences, he wrote: "The opposite of compassion is not hatred, it's indifference."
Sljedeći kamen spoticanja je obrezivanje - u religijske ili druge svrhe. Postoje određeni rizici & prednosti istog, a pitanje je što prevladava - negativne ili pozitivne posljedice o čemu različiti stručnjaci imaju različita mišljenja. Koga više zanima: Medical analysis of circumcision & Circumcision controversies. Wikipedia podcrtava u članku o muškim pravima: "Circumcision (characterized as harmless tradition by some, and as male genital mutilation by others) being advocated while female genital mutilation is prohibited, although both practices are purported to reduce sexual pleasure and expose the patient to possible health problems."

Broken Down Angel
Postovi: 911
Pridružen/a: 24 pro 2006 11:28

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Broken Down Angel » 07 kol 2010 18:04

Muškarci su uglavnom izloženiji zahtjevnijim fizičkim & opasnijim poslovima. Neki kao posljedicu toga navode kraći životni vijek muškaraca u odnosu na žene, iako postoji stav da to nije nužno povezano.

RODITELJSTVO ->

a] problemi vezani uz dužnosti & prava muškarca i žene prema djetetu - pravo na muški abortus [Crol: Pitanje muškog abortusa]
b] jednakost pred zakonom u parnicama posvećenim pitanju skrbništva nad djetetom u brakorazvodnom postupku: "Family courts have a powerful default of awarding custody to the mothers in 91% of the cases. This is regardless of the mothers conduct, or of her ability to support and care for the children." -> "If a child resides only with one parent and the other parent only has limited visiting rights then a process called parental alienation is possible. This is basically where the children are turned against the other parent. Since children are awarded custody to the mothers in 91% of the cases then the alienation is mostly against fathers."[UK Men and Father´s Rights]
c] imenovanje osobe od strane majke kao djetetova oca unatoč spoznaji s njene strane da on to možda ili sigurno nije [Paternity fraud]

* Veća stopa samoubojstva prisutna među muškarcima nego ženama.
Suicide accounts for l in 100 deaths but the majority of those are men. A worrying recent trend is the increasing rate of suicide among younger men (a trend not seen among young women). The majority of these men have not asked for help before their deaths. The suicide rate in men also increases in those aged between 65 and 75 years. In contrast, the suicide rate in women varies less with age. The higher suicide rate among men is a worldwide phenomenon. A few exceptions to the general rule exist, for example, among elderly women in Hungary and in some Asian countries. The reasons why men are more likely to kill themselves than women are complex and ill-understood. However, several pointers help our understanding.
Depression and suicide in men
Kršenje društvenih normi & provociranje postavljenih rodnih uloga također poteže društvene sankcije - primjerice, iskazivanje emocija je nešto tradicionalno rezervirano za žene, dok će dječacima, a kamoli odraslim muškarcima, to biti manje tolerirano. Isto tako, ja mogu odjenuti i hlače i suknju te prošetati gradom bez problema jer sam žena - dok da muškarac napravi isto riskira verbalno ili možda čak fizičko zlostavljanje.
It's usually seen as socially acceptable for a female to try out or follow masculine social norms, whereas if a male does the same for feminine social norms they often attract unwanted attention and are victims of ridicule, insult, harassment, and threatening behavior. For example, stay-at-home dads, men who want to be nannies or babysitters, men who cry or express emotions can all be treated poorly.
[Wikipedia]

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Soopertrack
Postovi: 804
Pridružen/a: 14 tra 2010 23:06

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Soopertrack » 07 kol 2010 18:30

ok. statistika je strašna, jadni naši slabašni, potlačeni, zlostavljani muškarci. ne umanjujem vrijednost ovih podataka, samo mi je sve skupa smiješno budući da je svaka osoba (bar na zapadu) kad tad 'diskriminirana' od strane nekoga. bilo to sa strane seksualnosti, nacionalne pripadnosti, statusa, različitosti mišljenja, što god hoćeš. a najsmješnije je to što se svi pozivamo na faktor 'društvenih normi' ili 'društva' kao takvog, a svatko od nas sam čini to famozno 'društvo'. pa ti vidi tko 'piše pravila' zbog kojih su onda ljudi potlačeni i ubijaju se.
The drum is the first thing you hear.. your mothers heartbeat..

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Zita
Postovi: 6235
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Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Zita » 07 kol 2010 18:45

:thumbup:
Measure of a woman is her sense of humor

Broken Down Angel
Postovi: 911
Pridružen/a: 24 pro 2006 11:28

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Broken Down Angel » 07 kol 2010 19:01

... a najsmješnije je to što se svi pozivamo na faktor 'društvenih normi' ili 'društva' kao takvog, a svatko od nas sam čini to famozno 'društvo'. pa ti vidi tko 'piše pravila' zbog kojih su onda ljudi potlačeni i ubijaju se.
Zašto ne bi onda mi kao ti pojedinci koji "pišu pravila" također ih i "brisali" / "modificirali"? I to što "je svaka osoba (bar na zapadu) kad tad 'diskriminirana' od strane nekoga" ne čini da to odjednom postaje u redu.
Ova tema o muškarcima na lezbijskom forumu će imati... možda 9 postova.
Zar je samo meni ovo tužno - ako se ne tiče mene, nije moj problem?

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Soopertrack
Postovi: 804
Pridružen/a: 14 tra 2010 23:06

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Soopertrack » 07 kol 2010 19:20

niti kažem da je prihvatljivo niti u redu. ali lako je sjest, zbrajat i množit, stvarat statistiku, masovno se zgražat nad dobivenim rezultatima, a rješenje je u svakoj osobi individualno.
The drum is the first thing you hear.. your mothers heartbeat..

Gost

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Gost » 07 kol 2010 19:30

Što se tiče komentara da je tužno.
Prije je predvidljivo i kontraproduktivno.
Trivijaliziranjem tuđeg problema se ne rješava vlastiti.

Broken Down Angel
Postovi: 911
Pridružen/a: 24 pro 2006 11:28

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Broken Down Angel » 07 kol 2010 19:32

@Soopertrack: Kako ćeš postići uopće da individua napravi nešto po pitanju nečeg negativnog što se događa, ako mu ne skreneš pažnju na isto? Pa zar mi to ne radimo? Trudimo se postati vidljivijima? Zašto onda to osporavati nekoj drugoj skupini čiji su problemi nevidljivi na drugi način? Prikupljanje činjenica & provjerljivih podataka te prezentiranje istih predstavlja temelj neophodan za podizanje socijalne svijesti u pojedinca.

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call_me
Postovi: 2892
Pridružen/a: 19 sij 2010 21:17
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Ja sam: lezbijka
Status: Solo

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la call_me » 07 kol 2010 22:32

boze koliko povjerenja u razumska i logicka ocitovanja ljudi. socijalne evolucije se nikada nisu dogadjale prezentacijom cinjenica i statistikom. gotovo nikad ni u jednoj fazi realizacije. na zalost. a pogotovo masa ne pusi cinjenice.
mada, divna namjera ovog topica. podrzavam.

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far out
Postovi: 1468
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Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la far out » 08 kol 2010 20:41

mislim da bi statistika bila drukcija da se do podataka doslo drukcijom metodom, recimo, promatranjem a ne intervjuiranjem.

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pihach
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Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la pihach » 08 kol 2010 20:47

ReaTM je napisao/la:Ova tema o muškarcima na lezbijskom forumu će imati... možda 9 postova.
evo ti 10. post :D

@far... promatranjem silovanja? hmhm, zanimljivo.. vec vizualiziram i ne bih rekla da bi upalilo, a medju ostalim, bilo bi fuuuul skupo i dugo bi trajalo, a i postoji mogucnost subjektivizacije.

ontopic - no comment :D

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far out
Postovi: 1468
Pridružen/a: 22 sij 2007 13:18
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Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la far out » 09 kol 2010 02:28

lol znas da ne mislim na to.
samo sam htjela reci kako muskarci i zene razlicito verbaliziraju situacije ponajprije zato sto ih uglavnom shvacaju drukcije.

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ladychris
Postovi: 394
Pridružen/a: 02 kol 2010 21:43
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Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la ladychris » 09 kol 2010 07:29

Iako s ovom temom ne mozemo puno, svidja mi se. Malo se o tome govori no vec duze vrijeme zene lakse prolaze sto se silovanja muskaraca tice. Sjetite se samo mnogobrojnih slika iz filmova (a tako je i u stvarnosti) gdje zena baca tanjure na muskarca, pljuska ga i grebe.. Iako mozda zena ne moze ozlijediti muskarca u toj mjeri kao muskarac zenu, jbg, ako se muska pljuska i udarac, pa cak i grube rijeci kaznjavaju, zbilja ne vidim razlog zasto se zenska agresivnost ne bi mogla kontolirati, i u krajnjoj mjeri kaznjavati.

Isto dolazimo do toga, ako se ne stavi nikakva odgovornost na zensko ponasanje, po pitanju agresije, koliko je lezbejska zajednica zasticena? I ovako je tesko biti u jednoj.
Trolling.

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sarabanda
Postovi: 92
Pridružen/a: 06 lip 2009 10:26
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Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la sarabanda » 09 kol 2010 09:19

na razini statistike: teško je vjerovati statističkim podacima jer je crna brojka ovakvih događanja ogromna. vidimo samo vrh sante. a i kriteriji su često upitni

na osobnoj razini: svako, baš svako, nasilje treba suzbijati i sankcionirati. žrtvi treba osobna pomoć a grupaciji društvena reakcija. ovdje kriteriji nisu upitni i svode se isključivo na osobni osjećaj ugroženosti

Broken Down Angel
Postovi: 911
Pridružen/a: 24 pro 2006 11:28

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la Broken Down Angel » 09 kol 2010 15:03

Što kad se ti brojevi pretvore u ljude? Kad ožive i dobiju sposobnost govora?
Jedna od priča. Jer nijedna osoba ne bi smjela biti broj. /
TRIGGER WARNING FOR SURVIVORS

This blog entry contains a warning that usually does not accompany my writings. If you are a rape/CSA/SA survivor and are in a bad place right now, you may wish to stop reading this entry until you are feeling better. If you continue, you do so by your own choice and at your own risk. Thank you.

MY EXPERIENCE

I've recently been coming to grips with the fact that I was raped by a woman - a pregnant woman. If you are laughing right now or saying to yourself "sure you were" or "I'd love that to happen to me" or "can't rape the willing" then I'm not sure you should continue reading as you are part of the problem. Scratch that - perhaps you should continue reading yeast infection treatment...

If you don't mind, I'll get right to it.

On a Friday night in the autumn of 1990, after a night of drinking, dancing and relaxing with a friend for several hours at a popular club in Jacksonville, North Carolina - said friend disappeared for the night and left his female friend (stranger to me) without a ride and about 35 miles from home. I was not capble of driving due to the strong possibility of my drink having been spiked by my friend's friend who had purchased both of my drinks that night. Fortunately, the club was next to a motel. She asked for a ride and I agreed to drive her home in the morning as she was pregnant. I was going to have to get a motel room for the evening as I was not driving in such a state. We decided to split the cost of the room and both agreed that sleeping was all that was going to take place. She was pregnant and I felt a compulsion to protect her in that state. At the time, I thought I was in love with a woman attending UNC-Wilmington and was not interested in sleeping with this stranger. I seem to recall we had separate beds. Everything went black after that I have a ton of holes in my memories from that weekend.

I woke up about 2 hours later - to find my clothes removed from the waist down, penis erect and the woman on top of me - raping me. She had apparently brought me to erection while I was unconscious - not hard as I was 19 and could easily maintain one with little effort at that age. She told me everything was okay and to go back to sleep and despite my best effort to the contrary, I was unable to speak coherently in my half-conscious state and did fall asleep again quickly. I have no idea how long she continued on top of me as I remained unconsious for the remainder of this first attack. It is very possible that this lasted for several hours as my rapist was (as I would learn later) an experienced domintrax and quite aggressive.

After the alcohol and/or possible sedatives had worn off in the morning, I awoke again to find her on top of me - angry and hostile. I immediately remembered waking up at least once prior during the night to find her on me and felt my body freeze up at the realization I was being raped. This wasn't a dream. This wasn't a fantasy. This wasn't consensual.

She sternly warned me to "be quiet" and "not be forceful" and made it clear that she would accuse me of raping her if I tried to stop it. I was stunned to say the least and not sure how to respond. I could easily have thrown her off me and ended it right then, but I was not willing to risk harming her child or her to protect myself. Further, I took her threat very, very seriously. She said it so easily that I doubt I was her first.

I weighed my options for a moment and came to the conclusion that a sober, pregnant, locally raised, college student of 24 was far more likely to be believed by the authorities than what they would perceive to be a drunk 19-year old Marine in the best shape of his life. I frequented that club a lot and I'm sure several people saw me leave with her. My choices were jail vs. enduring further rape at her hands.

I complied by lying still - as everytime I moved she screeched at me to be still - while she continued to warn, taunt and threaten me for what seemed like an eternity. I still can't comprehend the anger and hostility she conveyed while she raped me. How do I wrap my brain around what this woman did? How do I make it make sense? Why did she do it? Why me? Was she planning it? Was it random chance and opportunistic? These aren't healthy questions as I'll likely never have the answers, but I'm asking them anyway.

I don't really know how long this second rape continued as I eventually succeeded in disconnecting my mind from the situation. Eventually, she orgasmed again and got off me. I have no idea how many times she had actually raped me that night - at least twice. Or was it one long rape that lasted 7 hours or more? Not knowing is equal parts blessing and curse.

As a small favor, she turned out to be disease free.

Prior to accepting the facts and removing the veil of delusion, I'd always tried to pretend it was nothing or played it off like an uncomfortable memory of a strange night that ended weird whenever the memory surfaced. Pushing it to the back of my mind or deluding myself into believing I was somehow to blame for her actions had become an art form after so many years.

I am posting this now, because after nearly two decades of pretending, the floodgates opened last month, triggered by a friend, and it has been extremely difficult to deal with as my denial was swept away. I am in therapy as I have a lot of work ahead in order to heal after the band-aid was so dramatically and unexepectedly ripped away. As you can imagine, this was very difficult to admit, not only publicly to you, but to myself and to my wife as well. However, I cannot and will not hide this any longer. If my own story can help inspire someone else to seek assistance sooner, I am happy to be the catalyst that kicks off the healing process.

THE AFTERMATH AND OBSERVATIONS

Contrary to the ugly falsehoods spread by some men and women who deny that women can be predatory, rape is about power and control - not gender. She had power over me that night, even though I could have easily physically stopped her. Her pregnancy, the alcohol I had consumed, my refusal to harm a woman, and the threat of a false allegation against me were the only weapons she needed to have her way that night - and she used them with the manipulative skill of someone experienced in such tactics.

I am left with the knowledge that she took something from me that night. I can't get back those hours with her, erase the memories or pretend it didn't happen anymore. There is no such thing as retroactive consent and she certainly wasn't interested in finding a willing participant for a consensual experience. She wanted domination, fear and submissiveness from someone unable to resist. I have to accept that. In the meantime, I can alter my own response to the memories, flashbacks, sadness, anger, rage, and anxiety that years of denial have thrown at me all at once - and I will.

She won't win. I will heal. However, I will not be the same man at the other end of this process. That is not to say that I am now tragically flawed, a freak, or damaged goods. No, I am just going to be different in ways detectable and undetectable. I believe that human beings are all products of our environments, upbringings and experiences. This is just one more experience, albeit a powerful one, that constitutes the being known as James.

With the assistance of my wife, therapist and several friends who have been indispensible during this time, I am buoyed when I can't keep my head above water on my own.

I am not going to go quietly. I'm not going to cower in the corner. I'm going to be vocal. I'm not going to be anonymous or sheepish in my language. I'm going to attach my name to everything I say with regard to the healing process and not allow anyone to force me into silence. I'm going to be sad. I'm going to be angry. I'm going to be confused. I'm going to feel ashamed. I'm going to blame myself. I'm going to cry. Then I'm going to let it flow out of me as I heal.

I didn't fight her then, but I am going to fight her now. She won't win. She can't win.

I'm not a victim, I'm a survivor (in training). So fuck her. I get to win now.

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komad kruha
Postovi: 1372
Pridružen/a: 08 stu 2009 20:54
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Ja sam: lezbijka
Status: Solo

Re: Odnos "manjine" & "većine" - obostrano zatvaranje očiju?

Post Postao/la komad kruha » 09 kol 2010 18:36

nasilje nema ni roda, ni spola, ni seksualne orijentacije, ni nacionalne, ni vjerske pripadnosti, ni godina, ni zemljopisne odrednice. nasilje je nasilje. svako nasilje je nasilje i svako nasilje treba osuditi i sprječiti. bez obzira na žrtvu, bez obzira na počinitelja.
kaj te hiče?

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